Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champ

Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champ Is Bingley to be admired or scorned? I am with Elizabeth on this one. She and Darcy argued early on at Netherfield about the meaning of Bingley's nature: Bingley has bragged about his ability to make quick decision and Darcy chides that he does know himself. Darcy is in the middle of saying the Bingley could easily be swayed from his decision. [quote]... if, as you were mounting your horse, a friend were to say, "Bingley, you had better stay till next week," you would probably do it, you would probably not go -- and, at another word, might stay a month." "You have only proved by this," cried Elizabeth, "that Mr. Bingley did not do justice to his own disposition. You have shewn him off now much more than he did himself." "I am exceedingly gratified," said Bingley, "by your converting what my friend says into a compliment on the sweetness of my temper. But I am afraid you are giving it a turn which that gentleman did by no means intend; for he would certainly think the better of me, if under such a circumstance I were to give a flat denial, and ride off as fast as I could."[/quote] Now guess who makes each of these statements. 1."To yield readily -- easily -- to the persuasion of a friend is no merit with you." 2. "To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either." Ah, the irony. Elizabeth, who will have reason later on in the novel to decry Bingley's being so easily persuaded, makes the first statement. Darcy, who will manipulate Bingley to do what he wants, here says people should decide based on conviction and understanding. Even though his excuse is that he is saving Bingley from himself, Darcy shamelessly uses the man's pliable nature. Bingley had every intention of returning to Meryton but Darcy and Bingley's sisters wanted to make sure that did not happen. [quote]The part which I acted is now to be explained. -- His sisters' uneasiness had been equally excited with my own; our coincidence of feeling was soon discovered; and, alike sensible that no time was to be lost in detaching their brother, we shortly resolved on joining him directly in London. -- We accordingly went -- and there I readily engaged in the office of pointing out to my friend, the certain evils of such a choice. -- I described, and enforced them earnestly. -- But, however this remonstrance might have staggered or delayed his determination, I do not suppose that it would ultimately have prevented the marriage, [b]had it not been seconded by the assurance, which I hesitated not in giving, of your sister's indifference.[/b] He had before believed her to return his affection with sincere, if not with equal, regard. -- [b]But Bingley has great natural modesty[/b], with a stronger dependence on my judgment than on his own. -- To convince him, therefore, that he had deceived himself, was no very difficult point. To persuade him against returning into Hertfordshire, when that conviction had been given, was scarcely the work of a moment.[/quote] This is one of Austen's delicious dilemmas. Bingley is a sweet guy who relied on a friend's judgment and unwittingly breaks the heart of the sweetest girl in Meryton and thereabouts. In contrast, Darcy does not suffer from Bingley's brand of great natural modesty. Once he has decided [u]he[/u] is in love with a girl, he leaps to the conclusion that she must love him to and is patiently hoping for his proposal. Darcy is as wrong as Bingley except that he cannot assume a higher moral ground. His hubris leads him astray rather than any desire to protect the other person. In Darcy's defense, he backs off quickly when he realizes his attentions are not wanted. Hey, wait--isn't that the same thing Bingley did--back off when he was convinced his attentions were not wanted? So, in my opinion, Bingley is not weak. He is strong enough to think about someone else's feelings, and his mistake is that he listened to Darcy. But Bingley is also young. I imagine he will get more in the habit of taking his own counsel rather than substituting the persuasions of another. In this sense, he is like Anne Elliott. She could be persuaded at nineteen but at twenty-seven, she had grown up enough to trust her own heart and judgment. Actually, I think that if readers see Bingley as a wimp, then maybe Austen is not such a good writer. She should have given Jane someone better. But I think Austen knew what she was doing and that she was right.https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114435#msg-114435Thu, 30 Apr 2026 17:00:35 +0100 Phorum 5.2.22 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114649#msg-114649 Pictures! Pictures!(nfm)https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114649#msg-114649 Suzanne O Tea RoomTue, 17 Feb 2015 03:36:18 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114630#msg-114630 Re: luckier than perhaps he deserved....(nfm)https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114630#msg-114630 Sarah Waldock Tea RoomMon, 16 Feb 2015 01:05:05 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114610#msg-114610 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114610#msg-114610E. blames her family for Jane's heart break after Hunsford and also realises that only someone who truly knew Jane would have realised how she felt.]]> Little Nell Tea RoomSat, 14 Feb 2015 19:11:45 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114607#msg-114607 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114607#msg-114607
1. He leased Netherfield despite his sisters'm objections to the area;
2. They attended the Assembly despite their objections;
3. He hosted the ball despite Caroline's objections; and,
4. He would have returned to Netherfield despite their objections - as stated by Darcy.

It is only with respect to the decision as to whether Jane held him in affection that he fell short. Reposing his confidence in Darcy does not seem unwarrented and darcy's advice is not wrong insofar as he could discern Jane's feelings; his error does not invalidate his decision or his advice given the other impediments he saw. I do not think him wrong to believe that Jane would have been persuaded by her mother to accept such an offer. There is nothing in Jane's behaviour to suggest the strength of will to stand against her mother and truthfully, I suspect, most people of that era would have been surprised if Jane did not accept an offer even if she were not in love with Bingley. She had reached the age of twenty three without a sensible offer being made to her and the paucity of suitors - although not mentioned - would, I am sure, weighed heavily on her and her mother.]]> Peter Tea RoomSat, 14 Feb 2015 18:53:14 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114603#msg-114603 Re: but....https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114603#msg-114603 Harvey S. Tea RoomSat, 14 Feb 2015 16:44:53 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114602#msg-114602 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114602#msg-114602
I have seen arguments that Bingley giving way on this matter is a kind of thoughtfulness, but I disagree with those. He was a wimp to give up on Jane.]]> Harvey S. Tea RoomSat, 14 Feb 2015 16:39:32 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114594#msg-114594 Situation. Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114594#msg-114594
The sort of guy he comes across as generally (somewhat defined by Jane herself after a first meeting) " He is just what a young man ought to be,'' said she, ``sensible, good humoured, lively; and I never saw such happy manners! -- so much ease, with such perfect good breeding!'' sounds like someone far more preferable than Wickham, for instance. Now granted, this from a woman who saw good in everyone, but also an honest person and describing someone she is very attracted to personally. As such, her judgement must be considered, and nothing about Bingley is ever seen as dislikeable. Darcy, hardly everyone's idea of Mr Joviality, has him as his closest friend, a recommendation on at least some admirable qualities, surely? Personally, I have stated Bingley as wimpish in his acceptance of someone else's view in a matter so importance as choosing the woman you'll marry, but that apart he actually comes across as "a jolly fine sort of chap".

I see Bingley as another of Jane Austen's Yin and Yang creations in his total opposition to Darcy. She seems to enjoy making her characters show contrasting traits and personalities and, at times leaves some things unsaid. She has that magical knack of describing people intimately by hardly saying very much about them and letting the readers use their own imaginations. Above all, no one is totally perfect ,except Jane, of course, who could see a highwayman rob her and wonder perhaps if it was a case of mistaken identity? (-:]]> Jim G.M Tea RoomFri, 13 Feb 2015 12:43:11 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114585#msg-114585 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114585#msg-114585-------------------------------------------------------
> "It was Darcy who was convinced that Jane was
> wrong for Bingley, and Darcy was willing to go
> some lengths to have his point."
>
> Yep, and letting someone else make that decision
> for him is what makes Bingley a wimp. It doesn't
> mean that he's a bad guy or contemptible - I had
> an uncle who was a wimp: he let people boss him
> around his entire life, starting with his mother
> and ending with his wife, but I was very fond of
> him and I think he and my aunt were happy (they
> were married for 55 years). My aunt needed to
> marry a wimp as no one else would tolerate her
> bossiness.
>
> So I think it's possible Jane could be happy with
> Bingley, though I expect having neither person in
> a marriage be decisive leads to a number of
> predictable problems. And I also think he didn't
> deserve her.

Harvey, have you never on some matter on which you felt too emotionally involved to be objective, sought advice? If your answer is no, then I can only say W0W! I also hope that all the advice you have ever received has been good. Regency period or modern times, that is not always the case.

But perhaps you will also point out that this was the choice of a life partner? Should anyone ever seek anyone's advice on that? Probably not, is my reply. You should know your own heart and mind in this. But, realistically, people do not always--especially young people, who have not faced as much life as wise old heads. And, frankly, even wise old heads can get it very wrong.

Was Bingley being frightened, thoughtless, self-centered in his decision about Jane; or was he more concerned about her than himself? Perhaps, you would have preferred Bingley to be more like Collins, cock-sure and full of vinegar about all he could offer a woman materially? Bingley was too good a man and respected Jane too much to believe that his wealth and perhaps favor with Jane's match-making Mama would carry the day. Bingley was concerned with what Jane wanted, and when his friend offered his impression of Jane's indifference, that was the material point that won the day.

As I am sure you know, the thing about reading is that you try to understand the author's point of view and decipher the author's intent. If instead of doing this, you take one detail and build your entire interpretation on it, you are not reading very well. Austen provides any number of examples to show that Bingley is quite willing to speak up to Darcy and to object. The very first thing we hear from Bingley in the book is a reproof of Darcy, who responds in what I think is a pretty whiny fashion. Here is the exchange. Judge for yourself.

Quote

"Come, Darcy," said he, "I must have you dance. I hate to see you standing about by yourself in this stupid manner. You had much better dance."

"I certainly shall not. You know how I detest it, unless I am particularly acquainted with my partner. At such an assembly as this, it would be insupportable. Your sisters are engaged, and there is not another woman in the room whom it would not be a punishment to me to stand up with."

"I would not be so fastidious as you are," cried Bingley, "for a kingdom!

Does Bingley sound wimpy in this exchange? I have also cited in other comments in this thread remarks from Bingley that show him speaking up forthrightly. I will not repeat them here.

But, you know, love is not an easy matter. Wondering if one is loved -- who has not felt insecurity? Not Darcy, until he was turned down. Then he felt insecurity and yearning for something he might never have, and it spurred him to change how he thought of people and to treat them differently. When Collins felt insecurity at being turned down by a woman to whom he declared his affections, he misses not a beat in declaring to another woman. Would you describe either Darcy or Collins as a wimp? Neither of them behaved as nobly in the first encounter with their so-called beloved as did Bingley, who thought of Jane and was willing to suffer to save her inconvenience and awkwardness.

Harvey, as for your dear uncle who lets people boss him around, he is really no Bingley -- at least, not the Bingley written by Jane Austen. Go to the text and find examples from Austen of Bingley allowing his sisters to boss him. He knows where to draw the line. It was not their opinions that kept him from Jane but Bingley's acceptance of Darcy's judgment of Jane's feelings. Darcy attempted to persuade Bingley based on Jane's bad family, but that was not the point that won. As long Bingley felt Jane wanted him, he did not care how badly behaved her family was or how lacking she was in a dowry.

Fanfiction does write some marvelously wimpy Bingleys --great fun to read. How low can he go? But it is not Austen. Read Austen well and find me examples there of Bingley being cowardly or unwilling to speak up. You may not use the mistake he makde regarding Jane because, unlike your uncle, Harvey, it was not a wimp's mistake of fear or letting other people run over him. Bingley thought about it and he did not make his decision lightly.

And, I suspect it was not a mistake he would ever make again, given that Darcy reports at the end of the novel Bingley was angry with him when he realized his friend's lie by omission (not telling him Jane had been in London for three months), and Bingley makes Jane happy by telling he did not know she had been in town. Austen clearly wants readers to know that Bingley would have called on Jane if he knew she was there and he would been given hope that she was not indifferent. But Darcy (don't even get me started on the Bingley sisters) did not tell him. If Bingley was a wimp, then Jane's being in town would have made no difference because Bingley would have been too afraid of his sisters and Darcy to do anything. That is NOT the way Austen writes it.

Had Bingley only known, then he would have acted differently. Was it his fault, or Jane's fault, that he did not know -- or was it the duplicity of others? Respond based on Austen, not fanfiction.

Finally, I will offer this consolation, Harvey. Mr. Bennet seems to have had the same impression of both Jane and Bingley that you and other readers hold. He did not use the word wimp but here is what he says to his daughter right after she has become engaged:

Quote

"...Your tempers are by no means unlike. You are each of you so complying, that nothing will ever be resolved on; so easy, that every servant will cheat you; and so generous, that you will always exceed your income."

However, Mrs. Bennet helpfully points out that Bingley has a much bigger income than Jane has been used to in her father's house. But even before she reminds her sarcastic husband of this home truth, sweet Jane has this comeback for her father's tease:

Quote

"I hope not so. Imprudence or thoughtlessness in money matters would be unpardonable in me."

The italics for emphasis are Austen's. It sounds to me that Jane is promising her sharp-tongued Papa that she will do well managing -- perhaps because she has had such an example of what not to do from Mr. Bennet?]]> Redson Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 23:19:08 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114584#msg-114584 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114584#msg-114584
In the end I always return to the book as an anchor to wild imagination ,although the desire to saddle a horse, get in the carriage or write with a quill pen by candle light is ever there. Escapism? Sure it is, but the pleasure remains as fresh as returning to page one again. One of my hobbies is watercolour painting and I've painted almost all the scenes from the story. Amazingly, hardly any of my family( one daughter) have ever even read Pride and Prejudice. That they can go through life that way is a constant source of amazement to me.]]> Jim G.M Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 22:33:03 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114582#msg-114582 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114582#msg-114582
I actually agree with you that most of the characters, events and coincidences in P and P are plot devices, primarily planned to move the plot forward and to get the main characters to where the author needed them. I differ in that I think Darcy is equally important to Elizabeth (although the narrating POV is primarily hers). I think he counterpoints a lot of what is shown in Elizabeth’s character. Just like the aspect that has been quoted a lot in this discussion thread: the debate about firmness of opinion versus being easily persuaded. As others said, Darcy ends up acting using the principle professed by Elizabeth in their debate, while Elizabeth wishes Bingley to be what Darcy stood for: steadfast. It can also be argued that both of them have a different kind of pride and a different kind of prejudice which their interaction exposes and they both try to improve.

You say, if I understand correctly, that because both Bingley and Jane are plot devices, their characters are formed for this purpose, and that Bingley’s abandonment or Jane’s final acceptance can’t be measured against expectations for real actions of real people.
I think Jane Austen’s greatness lies (partly) in the fact that even her „plot device” characters can still be imagined as flesh and blood persons. There could be such girls as Jane, interpreted by some as extraordinarily naive, impossibly angelic, introverted perfectionist, a warmhearted truly kind girl… and such young men as Bingley, whom so many readers wish to „finally grow a spine” but so many others like for being the modest, unselfish, considerate person who wants the happiness of the girl he loves even if it can only be without him. These characters inspired so much discussion and interpretation, so many fanfiction story to discover their character potentials in spite of primarily being „only” plot devices.]]> Agnes Beatrix Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 21:51:11 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114580#msg-114580 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114580#msg-114580
You say Mrs Bennet didn't know what Jane's feelings were. Maybe not directly spoken by Jane, but she would surely have either drawn the situation in or sent Bingley scurrying for the hills. To save lots of quoting space, obviously we have different views. Mine hang heavily on Pride and Prejudice being a very clever story that isn't first and foremost about love, but about characters, feelings and events. Jane and Bingley, whilst important parts of the tale, are props around Lizzie Bennet. Even Darcy takes second place to her in much of the events. If the Jane and Bingley scenario hadn't had its complications, where would the sisters have fitted in, and the Gardiners used as convenient location props to move it all around. Mr Collins is another clever piece of link-up by J.A by being made a distant cousin and heir apparent to Longbourne thus using Lady Catherine Darcy's aunt and Collins's mentor as yet another way to link locations up and make a convenient meeting place for Lizzie and Darcy. Charlotte Lucas is another example of cleverness, because without her marrying Collins, why would Lizzie ever visit Kent or meet Lady C? In the same vein, taking Bingley away from the action is purely a suspension, as is moving Wickham off the board for a while. How to get it all back together? use an event that has a sting in the tale to throw them all into each other paths. Very clever plotting and one of the main reasons I admire P&P so much. Jane and Bingley are convenient padding rather than central to the story as purely major players. "Made for each other" might well be a very relevant statement.

You asked why double standards? In the friendly argument Darcy wanted to itemise everything methodically about Bingley making a quick decision and upping stakes without a major debate.. In Bingley's case he almost kidnapped him into instant action without much time to even think.

These are of course my views and not claiming to be otherwise.]]> Jim G.M Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 20:16:36 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114579#msg-114579 Re: Jane living happily ever after with Bingleyhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114579#msg-114579twirled a bangle or two for exercise and thought labour was when someone else was pregnant. With the need to support themselves at least temporarily not a problem, gossiping, dancing and reading filled their days apart from a sally or two to the milliners or soldier-spotting in the youngest Bennet case. In short, finding something to pass the time, be it riding, shopping, visiting friends, socialising, a spot of billiards or blowing a game bird or two into feathers was the order of the day for all. Add spotting wealthy single men in want of wives as Mrs Bennet's consuming passion and such was life in Meryton. Such a lifestyle allowed Darcy to persuade Bingley there was nothing pressing at Netherfield Park and, since it was obvious that Jane Bingley wasn't interested, why go back there at all?

Thus, at that stage, Darcy himself hadn't yet been bitten by the love bug so he was more than happy to escape a place where, in his eyes, there was no class or fashion. It was documented he didn't relate well to strangers, preferring his close friends and aquaintences, so he would hardly even notice Jane with much interest and be in a desperate hurry to escape Mrs Bennet's acid tongue. All this makes Bingley look rather feeble as a personality if he did have feelings for Jane, and only someone as like minded as Jane would really suit him. Jane's character, anywhere but in the family bosom is hardly a Georgian Joan of Arc, more a too-nice-to-survive person. In short, courtesy of Jane Austen's wit, they were a perfect match. Matching flannel nighgowns with forget-me-not borders. (-:]]> Jim G.M Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 19:26:17 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114578#msg-114578 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114578#msg-114578-------------------------------------------------------
>
> But surely, there would be no pressure on anyone
> by Bingley in his simply returning to Meryton,
> just to see what developed? He knew he would be
> welcomed with open arms by matchmaker in chief Mrs
> Bennet and, he would surely know from her how Jane
> felt. I would think he'd absolutely insist on
> doing so. He needn't mention romance, engagements
> or promises at all until he was sure of his
> ground. Instead, he just takes the word of his
> friend backed up by his sisters and keeps away
> from a woman he supposedly loves for eight months?
> .Wasn't it Darcy who, during the course of a
> friendly argument, insisted on outlining the pros
> and cons of the situation before deciding on
> action? Smacks a little of double standards does
> it not?
1. I think Bingley had raised expectations by his behavior towards Jane (he was considered as her suitor), so that the whole neighbourhood expected a proposal before he left and Jane was considered jilted. Therefore, he couldn't just return and observe without consequences.
2. You can't seriously mean that Mrs. Bennet was suited to give Bingley a true hint regarding Jane's feelings. She didn't know what they were, she didn't consider them relevant, and she had decided that Bingley should marry Jane before they even met him and advertised the match to the neighbourhood. She's the person who causes the most of the pressure on Jane.
3. Bingley meant to stay away from Jane permanently because he thought it was best for Jane. We may disagree whether this is love but he considered Jane's (wrongly perceived) interest before his own.
4. What do you mean by double standards? Bingley did consider the pros and cons of the situation, only he thought the cons presented by Darcy had more weight than the pros of his feelings

>Jane Bennet, sweet
> to the point of total naivety, would actually need
> a husband who didn't swear when he clouted his
> thumb with a hammer, but again, that's how Jane
> Austen wanted her, so Bingley was created wimpish
> by design. As a male, I have to hope he might have
> acted a little differently in reality. (-:

This is not the only possible interpretation of Jane and what she needs. It's discussed in the thread below extensively.]]> Agnes Beatrix Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 18:37:40 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114572#msg-114572 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114572#msg-114572-------------------------------------------------------
> Redson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
!" To the Regency mindset, however (or how I
> understand it) it was preferable to avoid a
> proposal that would be refused. Young women try to
> give all sorts of indirect signals to discourage a
> man from proposing and it is awkward and
> unpleasant if they have to listen to a proposal
> and refuse it - and the opposite is also true
> about the gentleman: Bingley rightly feels that
> there would be pressure on Jane to accept his suit
> regardless of her own feelings if he asks her
> outright. I think it is suited to this way of
> thinking that if someone (one he looks up to)
> assures Bingley Jane doesn't love him as she
> ought, he counts this as an indirect signal, one
> that he failed to understand.

But surely, there would be no pressure on anyone by Bingley in his simply returning to Meryton, just to see what developed? He knew he would be welcomed with open arms by matchmaker in chief Mrs Bennet and, he would surely know from her how Jane felt. I would think he'd absolutely insist on doing so. He needn't mention romance, engagements or promises at all until he was sure of his ground. Instead, he just takes the word of his friend backed up by his sisters and keeps away from a woman he supposedly loves for eight months? .Wasn't it Darcy who, during the course of a friendly argument, insisted on outlining the pros and cons of the situation before deciding on action? Smacks a little of double standards does it not? I admit Jane Austen was intelligent and what she did was deliberate (in my view) and she was very conscious of the form of things in her own era, and there has to be controversy involved to suit the plot, but the question was : Is Bingley a wimp? for following the path he did, or is he a wimp purely by design. Jane Bennet, sweet to the point of total naivety, would actually need a husband who didn't swear when he clouted his thumb with a hammer, but again, that's how Jane Austen wanted her, so Bingley was created wimpish by design. As a male, I have to hope he might have acted a little differently in reality. (-:]]> Jim G.M Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 16:52:45 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114571#msg-114571 Re: Aliashttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114571#msg-114571 Jim G.M Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 16:32:47 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114570#msg-114570 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114570#msg-114570-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Now guess who makes each of these statements.
>
> 1."To yield readily -- easily -- to the persuasion
> of a friend is no merit with you."
>
> 2. "To yield without conviction is no compliment
> to the understanding of either."
>
> Ah, the irony. Elizabeth, who will have reason
> later on in the novel to decry Bingley's being so
> easily persuaded, makes the first statement.
> Darcy, who will manipulate Bingley to do what he
> wants, here says people should decide based on
> conviction and understanding.

I agree with you very much, and I think Austen deliberately uses this controversy and irony. Both the characters (and so, the reader as well) have to learn how none of these statements are of absolute value and the opposite of their standpoints is just as easily acceptable given the right circumstance.

>
> This is one of Austen's delicious dilemmas.
> Bingley is a sweet guy who relied on a friend's
> judgment and unwittingly breaks the heart of the
> sweetest girl in Meryton and thereabouts.
>
> In contrast, Darcy does not suffer from Bingley's
> brand of great natural modesty. Once he has
> decided he is in love with a girl, he leaps
> to the conclusion that she must love him to and is
> patiently hoping for his proposal. Darcy is as
> wrong as Bingley except that he cannot assume a
> higher moral ground. His hubris leads him astray
> rather than any desire to protect the other
> person.
>
> In Darcy's defense, he backs off quickly when he
> realizes his attentions are not wanted. Hey,
> wait--isn't that the same thing Bingley did--back
> off when he was convinced his attentions were not
> wanted? So, in my opinion, Bingley is not weak.
> He is strong enough to think about someone else's
> feelings, and his mistake is that he listened to
> Darcy. But Bingley is also young. I imagine he
> will get more in the habit of taking his own
> counsel rather than substituting the persuasions
> of another. In this sense, he is like Anne
> Elliott. She could be persuaded at nineteen but at
> twenty-seven, she had grown up enough to trust her
> own heart and judgment.

Austen does not actually condemn Bingley for stepping back not wanting to force Jane into a marriage without love, and she (JA) also doesn't condemn him (well, not as much as some of us modern readers) for listening to Darcy (I mean, he retains the good opinion of Darcy and Elizabeth, and he does get the girl which I suppose counts for the author's ultimate approval). And Darcy's offense of persuading/manipulating Bingley is also forgiven. As you mention in contrast Darcy's overconfidence when he proposes assuming that Elizabeth will accept him, this behavior is perhaps more condemned by the author (it results in the angry refusal, and he radically changes his behavior before he is rewarded).

I love your comparison to Anne Elliot!

> Actually, I think that if readers see Bingley as a
> wimp, then maybe Austen is not such a good writer.
> She should have given Jane someone better.

Well, this statement I disagree with, partly because of what I stated below, and partly because of the difference of opinion in what is desirable and undesirable behavior in a gentleman/suitor/lover (and to what extent is it good to listen to others and give way versus standing one's ground) that exist between Jane Austen's era and ours. See how it is obvious for us to call an "easily persuaded" man a "wimp" - to use a derogatory term, that is.

Or, to mention another difference, in our modern mindset it is the right thing to "get things out in the open", to "use a direct approach" - that is, "Bingley, go to the girl and clear out the misunderstandings, see for yourself if she loves you!" To the Regency mindset, however (or how I understand it) it was preferable to avoid a proposal that would be refused. Young women try to give all sorts of indirect signals to discourage a man from proposing and it is awkward and unpleasant if they have to listen to a proposal and refuse it - and the opposite is also true about the gentleman: Bingley rightly feels that there would be pressure on Jane to accept his suit regardless of her own feelings if he asks her outright. I think it is suited to this way of thinking that if someone (one he looks up to) assures Bingley Jane doesn't love him as she ought, he counts this as an indirect signal, one that he failed to understand.]]> Agnes Beatrix Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 16:06:46 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114569#msg-114569 Aliashttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114569#msg-114569 Amy I. Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 15:30:57 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114567#msg-114567 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114567#msg-114567
Exactly what authority is Fitzwilliam Darcy on romance? He's twenty seven going on fifty nine years old and with no mentions of romantic association except what he sees in his dressing mirror. Bingley may well have thought to ask him that (if he hadn't been in such awe of him), indeed he should have done that, but of course, didn't. So here we have a story of supposed great romance, between two friends and their chosen ladies and yet both are put to shame by a gawky fool of a man ( Cassanova Collins) who manages to fall in love with three different woman, realises he can't have one, tries his luck with the second and becomes engaged to the third...and all in the space of forty-eight hours... and he wasn't handsome or intelligent and of middling financial means only.( Well, he did have future ownership of Longbourne up his sleeve, but that was dependent of Mr Bennet obligingly dying). One has to wonder how Bingley passed those eight months in the bright lights of Grosvenor Square? Give that some thought, because the answer may lead us to believe he was either a carefree rake who danced, drank and gambled his time away ( well, he could hardly shoot much in Grosvenor Square, could he?) or he spent his time playing cards with boring Mr Hurst between falling asleep on the chaise longue. Eight months can seem a long time, especially to someone who mopes around dreaming of what might have been. Yes, Mr Bingley definitely had much to learn. (-:]]> Brontesawus Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 15:14:35 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114563#msg-114563 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114563#msg-114563
If he were he would never just take the word of a friend, however much he admired him, as gospel on probably the most controversial topic known to man. He is therefore, a wimp. Jane Austen created him, but she gave no choice as to his character; that she decided for us. It's 1813, so we hardly expect Bingley to be flinging Jane to down on a four-poster bed and sticking her to it with fifty shades of Elastoplast or giving her a good whopping with his riding crop. He needn't even be a hairy-chested type who drinks and swears to be manly. He's obviously a macho man in the way he blasts partridges and pheasants straight into the cooking pots, with his Robert Wogdon sporting gun, and it's good that he's a gent who feeds her white soup and gives a sick lady his last fuel log for her comfort, and lends her his carriage to go home in. Those are the acts of a gentleman.

But, in terms of romance, he's a wimp. Told what to do by his friend and bossed about by his sisters, he takes off from someone he later declares long-term love for and doesn't bother to return for eight months. It would have served him right if Jane had met and married an admiral who glimpsed her through his telescope whilst she was doing a spot of sea-bathing at Ramsgate. Nice chap, Bingley, yes. Wimp....decidedly. (-:]]> Brontesawus Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 13:39:22 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114562#msg-114562 Re: but....https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114562#msg-114562 Sarah Waldock Tea RoomThu, 12 Feb 2015 12:57:11 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114556#msg-114556 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114556#msg-114556
Yep, and letting someone else make that decision for him is what makes Bingley a wimp. It doesn't mean that he's a bad guy or contemptible - I had an uncle who was a wimp: he let people boss him around his entire life, starting with his mother and ending with his wife, but I was very fond of him and I think he and my aunt were happy (they were married for 55 years). My aunt needed to marry a wimp as no one else would tolerate her bossiness.

So I think it's possible Jane could be happy with Bingley, though I expect having neither person in a marriage be decisive leads to a number of predictable problems. And I also think he didn't deserve her.]]> Harvey S. Tea RoomWed, 11 Feb 2015 22:10:18 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114554#msg-114554 I vote wimphttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114554#msg-114554 Harvey S. Tea RoomWed, 11 Feb 2015 20:42:34 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114540#msg-114540 Re: Jane living happily ever after with Bingleyhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114540#msg-114540 Agnes Beatrix Tea RoomWed, 11 Feb 2015 13:45:39 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114536#msg-114536 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114536#msg-114536
During the Netherfield breakfast after Elizabeth has tracked her muddy feet into the dining room, Caroline waits until she has left the room and denigrates her.

Quote

"To walk three miles, or four miles, or five miles, or whatever it is, above her ancles in dirt, and alone, quite alone! what could she mean by it? It seems to me to shew an abominable sort of conceited independence, a most country town indifference to decorum."

"It shews an affection for her sister that is very pleasing," said Bingley.

That's what the kids these days would call slam! Bingley is telling his own sister she could learn a few things from Elizabeth, and he does so in a deadpan but unwavering way.

The Bingley sister are not finished trying to tear down those Bennet girls:

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"I think I have heard you say, that their uncle is an attorney in Meryton."

"Yes; and they have another, who lives somewhere near Cheapside."

"That is capital," added her sister, and they both laughed heartily.

but note how their brother rebukes their cattiness:

Quote

"If they had uncles enough to fill all Cheapside," cried Bingley, "it would not make them one jot less agreeable."

It is only Bingley's deference to Darcy that makes him cede the last word to his older friend, who says rather less nobly than Bingley:

Quote

"But it must very materially lessen their chance of marrying men of any consideration in the world,"

Despite Bingley's silence at that point, he goes on to allow his feelings for Jane to flourish, so much so that Darcy feels he must be quite active in tearing his young friend from the woman with the unacceptable family. It was not easy for Darcy to persuade Bingley not to return to Netherfield, and eventually, only Darcy's adamant claim that Jane was indifferent made Bingley falter.

Another instance at Netherfield when Bingley showed he could have a snappy, sarcastic tongue was his response to Caroline, who was going on and on about how he should make his estate just like Darcy's Pemberley. Bingley says,

Quote

"With all my heart; I will buy Pemberley itself if Darcy will sell it."

"I am talking of possibilities, Charles."

"Upon my word, Caroline, I should think it more possible to get Pemberley by purchase than by imitation."

Bingley also teases Darcy in that rough, blunt way that men can have with each other:

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"By all means," cried Bingley; "Let us hear all the particulars, not forgetting their comparative height and size; for that will have more weight in the argument, Miss Bennet, than you may be aware of. I assure you that if Darcy were not such a great tall fellow, in comparison with myself, I should not pay him half so much deference. I declare I do not know a more aweful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening when he has nothing to do."

Mr. Darcy smiled; but Elizabeth thought she could perceive that he was rather offended; and therefore checked her laugh. Miss Bingley warmly resented the indignity he had received, in an expostulation with her brother for talking such nonsense.

So, no, Bingley did not want Darcy and Elizabeth to argue. Perhaps he wanted to protect the slight Miss from the tall and imposing gentleman because he knows better than Elizabeth that his friend Darcy can have a cutting tongue when he wishes? I think Bingley could take care of himself but in this instance, he was really taking care of Elizabeth.]]> Redson Tea RoomWed, 11 Feb 2015 02:08:06 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114535#msg-114535 Little Nell, had I seen your post,https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114535#msg-114535 Redson Tea RoomWed, 11 Feb 2015 01:34:52 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114534#msg-114534 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114534#msg-114534

Quote

"I see your design, Bingley," said his friend. "You dislike an argument, and want to silence this."
"Perhaps I do. Arguments are too much like disputes. If you and Miss Bennet will defer yours till I am out of the room, I shall be very thankful; and then you may say whatever you like of me."

I work with a guy who's intelligent (PhD from Oxford in chemistry) and very articulate in discussions, but he freezes up if it gets confrontational-- as in, when someone gets angry at him, his face goes blank and you can't pry a word out of him-- even when he's in the right. That's how I picture Bingley; not wishy-washy or stupid or sweet-tempered like an old school Disney princess... just a guy who will do just about anything to avoid an argument.

I'm trying to think of another scene in which there is a "dispute" with Bingley present-- are there any?

-Jean]]> Jean M. Tea RoomWed, 11 Feb 2015 01:11:30 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114532#msg-114532 Re: Jane living happily ever after with Bingleyhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114532#msg-114532-------------------------------------------------------

> As for Elizabeth and Darcy respecting Bingley, I'm
> sure they did not think he was a "wishy-washy
> wimp" but towards the ending, after the
> reconciliation with Darcy, Elizabeth has some less
> than respectful thoughts about how Bingley could
> still be influenced by Darcy - which she keeps to
> herself because she doesn't feel Darcy would be
> comfortable with her teasing. him about it.

I do not read the Austen text in the same way you do, Agnes. "Less than respectful thoughts about Bingley"? Would you also characterize Elizabeth as having less than respectful thoughts about Darcy? I would say no to both questions, but I am inserting Austen's words below so that readers of this thread can judge for themselves. Darcy is the first speaker:

Quote

".... Bingley is most unaffectedly modest. His diffidence had prevented his depending on his own judgment in so anxious a case, but his reliance on mine made every thing easy. I was obliged to confess one thing, which for a time, and not unjustly, offended him. I could not allow myself to conceal that your sister had been in town three months last winter, that I had known it, and purposely kept it from him. He was angry. But his anger, I am persuaded, lasted no longer than he emained in any doubt of your sister's sentiments. He has heartily forgiven me now."

Elizabeth longed to observe that Mr. Bingley had been a most delightful friend; so easily guided that his worth was invaluable; but she checked herself. She remembered that he had yet to learn to be laughed at, and it was rather too early to begin. In anticipating the happiness of Bingley, which of course was to be inferior only to his own, he continued the conversation till they reached the house.

If anything, Elizabeth is reluctant to tease Darcy about manipulating his friend, which Darcy should rightly feel some qualms about, imo. But it is clear Darcy speaks of Bingley with respect and affection, and I doubt that Elizabeth feels less for her new brother-to-be.

Later, when Elizabeth is in a more playful mood, she says to Darcy about her own tendency to have been close to impertinent with him:

Quote

Had you not been really amiable, you would have hated me for it; but in spite of the pains you took to disguise yourself, your feelings were always noble and just; and in your heart, you thoroughly despised the persons who so assiduously courted you. There -- I have saved you the trouble of accounting for it; and really, all things considered, I begin to think it perfectly reasonable. To be sure, you knew no actual good of me -- but nobody thinks of that when they fall in love."

"Was there no good in your affectionate behaviour to Jane while she was ill at Netherfield?"

"Dearest Jane! who could have done less for her? But make a virtue of it by all means. My good qualities are under your protection, and you are to exaggerate them as much as possible;

For sure, Jane is still one of Elizabeth's favorite people in the world. And Elizabeth shows no concern at putting Jane's happiness into Bingley's hands.]]> Redson Tea RoomTue, 10 Feb 2015 22:58:52 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114531#msg-114531 Re: Jane living happily ever after with Bingleyhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114531#msg-114531

Quote

The children, two girls of six and eight years old, and two younger boys, were to be left under the particular care of their cousin Jane, who was the general favourite, and whose steady sense and sweetness of temper exactly adapted her for attending to them in every way -- teaching them, playing with them, and loving them.

Bingley is described by JA as intelligent and while not as clever as Darcy by no means deficient. As regards his decision not to pursue Jane,JA makes it very clear that he was determined to pursue her despite the objections of his sisters and Darcy to her connections.

Quote

But, however this remonstrance might have staggered or delayed his determination, I do not suppose that it would ultimately have prevented the marriage, had it not been seconded by the assurance, which I hesitated not in giving, of your sister's indifference. He had before believed her to return his affection with sincere, if not with equal, regard. -- But Bingley has great natural modesty, with a stronger dependence on my judgment than on his own. -- To convince him, therefore, that he had deceived himself, was no very difficult point.

Quote

Anxiety on Jane's behalf was another prevailing concern, and Mr. Darcy's explanation, by restoring Bingley to all her former good opinion, heightened the sense of what Jane had lost. His affection was proved to have been sincere, and his conduct cleared of all blame, unless any could attach to the implicitness of his confidence in his friend.

We are only given a glimpse of their conversations when he returned to Longbourn but there is evidence from what Jane said to E. afterwards that they did talk about the events that led to their separation and Bingley did have to explain himself.
Also we know from Darcy and also from Bingleys comments when he meets E. at Lambton that he has remained steadfast in his love for Jane. Bingley is young which explains his diffidence but he is also intelligent enough to know that his love for Jane could have caused him to believe she returned his feelings and blinded him to her indifference. Dare I say that Darcy might have benefitted from a bit of his modesty, it could have saved him from his Hunsford.

The part you refer to at the end of the novel where E. restrains herself from commenting is aimed more at teasing Darcy than denigrating Bingley in my opinion.

Quote

She remembered that he had yet to learn to be laughed at, and it was rather too early to begin.

Quote

Anxiety on Jane's behalf was another prevailing concern, and Mr. Darcy's explanation, by restoring Bingley to all her former good opinion, heightened the sense of what Jane had lost. His affection was proved to have been sincere, and his conduct cleared of all blame, unless any could attach to the implicitness of his confidence in his friend.

I will stop before this turns into an essay]]> Little Nell Tea RoomTue, 10 Feb 2015 22:42:44 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114524#msg-114524 Jane living happily ever after with Bingleyhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114524#msg-114524
While a lot of us might think that a woman - Jane Bennet - could not possibly be happy with a Bingley who was easily led or persuaded, it is quite possible that she could, as Jane Austen wrote her. There is no indication that she would look for a man who is a strong-willed independent thinker, a man who makes up his own mind and stands firm to his own decisions. She did look for someone who was kind, friendly, easy to get along with the neighbourhood. A proof of this is that she accepted Bingley immediately after he came back and proposed again. There are many fanfics where Jane doesn't accept him right away, or not at all, because she is afraid that he will be again weak at some crisis or not constant to her or influenced by others - expressing the belief of many of JA fans that this is the better decision.

For another example, to this day, I can never truly believe that Charlotte Lucas could really be content in the long run with Mr. Collins and that it was a truly good decision to marry him, although I have learned to appreciate her motives and her ability to be content in this marriage as much as possible. I can imagine the same is true for Jane Bennet (if I choose to view Bingley in the worst light) - she can be happy where I might not be.

As for Elizabeth and Darcy respecting Bingley, I'm sure they did not think he was a "wishy-washy wimp" but towards the ending, after the reconciliation with Darcy, Elizabeth has some less than respectful thoughts about how Bingley could still be influenced by Darcy - which she keeps to herself because she doesn't feel Darcy would be comfortable with her teasing. him about it.]]> Agnes Beatrix Tea RoomTue, 10 Feb 2015 14:50:15 +0000 https://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114504#msg-114504 Re: Bingley: Wishy-washy Wimp or Sweet-Tempered Champhttps://dwiggie.com/phorum/read.php?4,114435,114504#msg-114504-------------------------------------------------------

>
> JA tells us at the end of the novel that
>

Quote

Jane and Elizabeth, in addition to every
> other source of happiness, were within thirty
> miles of each other.

So Jane did live
> happily ever after..nor something that would be
> possible with a weak or easily led man in my
> opinion.

I agree with Sandy C's observation about fanfic diversity, and I am happy to see characters that divert from Austen's. It can make for some very good scenarios that take different paths from the one that Austen would have.

However, as a reader I also appreciate trying to understand Austen's messages. So, I think Little Nell makes a really good point with her observation. I had not considered that line from Pride and Prejudice when I started this thread. I suppose one could posit a weak Bingley as being possible in a universe in which Jane is happy, but I think not. "Every source of happiness" suggests to me that she is happy in her marriage and her life and has her sister nearby, the latter being the icing on the cake. Austen's Jane and Bingley live happily ever after.

I have read fanfic in which Bingley is a womanizer or he is such a poor provider that Jane ends up poor and struggling. Or, he simply so ineffectual as a husband he puts her on a pedestal instead of treating her as a woman wants to be treated by a husband. Many writers give Jane "someone stronger," like the colonel or some newly created character. This is all fine with me. But, as Nell points out, Austen writes that Jane was happy with Bingley so I doubt Austen would have written any of these other scenarios.

I am not saying it is wrong for a reader to come to a different conclusion than Austen. Just because she liked Bingley--and the evidence is she did--does not mean every reader must like him. It's like Mansfield Park and Fanny Price. Some readers actually believe Austen meant for Fanny to be seen as a mousy, small-minded hypocrite and Mary Crawford, lively and outspoken, is the novel's "real" heroine. I think it's fine for a reader to see the characters this way but it is incorrect that Austen wanted you to see the characters this way.

Similarly, readers can have such a personal, almost visceral reaction to Bingley's allowing himself to be persuaded to leave Jane that they assume Austen does not regard Bingley well. A reader must separate his or her feelings from what Austen is communicating. Just because she is happy with Bingley does not mean you have to be, but you do need to recognize that she is happy with Bingley.

It is true that despicable characters oftentimes fare quite well in Austen. She did not send Wickham to gaol or the poorhouse, as many fanfic writers would do. Austen left Willoughby in a luxurious marriage to a rich woman where he could perhaps pine for Marianne or even sometimes reflect on his cruelty to Eliza Williams, instead of really punishing him as some fanfic writers have done. Lucy Steele's duplicity earned her an income twice as nice as Eleanor's -- but Eleanor was happy and a definitely a better person. Perhaps virtue is meant to be its own reward?

Anyway, I think Austen meant that Bingley was a good man who made Jane happy. But that is not the way he has to be in every fanfic.]]> Redson Tea RoomSun, 08 Feb 2015 23:36:24 +0000